To coincide with Paramount Home Video's new 4K release of the 1986 film Dragonslayer, Cinema Retro's Todd Garbarini caught up with the film's director, Matthew Robbins.
By Todd Garbarini
Matthew Robbins is a film director whose experience in the
industry goes back over fifty years. Born in New York City and a graduate of
Johns Hopkins University in 1965 with a BA in Romance Languages, he formed
friendships with Academy Award-winning film editor and sound mixer Walter Murch
(The Godfather, 1972) and Academy Award-nominated cinematographer Caleb
Deschanel (The Black Stallion, 1979). While a student pursuing his MFA
at the USC School of Cinematic Arts in Los Angeles, he met future film director
George Lucas who enlisted Mr. Robbins to work on his student film, Electronic
Labyrinth: THX 1138 4EB (1967), which was later made into the feature film THX
1138 starring Robert Duvall and Donald Pleasence.
Well into his mid-twenties when he came into The New
Hollywood (aka the American New Wave or Hollywood Renaissance), his
professional career began during one of the most original and fruitful decades
in American Cinema, the 1970s. Along with his USC writing partner Hal Barwood,
they scripted the real-life 1969 escapades of ex-convict Robert “Bobby” Dent,
22, and his wife, Ila Fae Dent, 21, into The Sugarland Express, hailed
by New Yorker film critic Pauline Kael as “one of the most phenomenal debut
films in the history of movies,” as directed by Steven Spielberg and released
in 1974. Both Mr. Robbins and Mr. Barwood made brief appearances as two of the
World War II pilots returning to Earth from the mothership in Mr. Spielberg’s Close
Encounters of the Third Kind (1977).
After writing The Bingo Long Travelling All-Stars and
Motor Kings (1976) and MacArthur (1977), Mr. Robbins made his
directorial debut while co-writing Corvette Summer (1978), a comedy that
pitted Mark Hamill and Annie Potts against a ring of car thieves. Next, he
embarked on his most audacious outing yet – the fantasy film Dragonslayer,
the second film made a co-production with Paramount Pictures and Walt Disney
after Robert Altman’s Popeye in 1980. Starring Peter MacNicol as Galen,
apprentice to the wizard Ulrich (Sir Ralph Richardson), who must battle the
dragon Vermithrax Pejorative following Ulrich’s death, Dragonslayer has
had a poor representation on home video over the decades. All that has changed
now, thankfully, as Paramount Home Video has restored and released the film in
native 4K Ultra High Definition on Blu-ray and Standard Blu-ray. The result is
glorious. I spoke with Mr. Robbins recently about this new restoration.
Todd Garbarini: Dragonslayer
is one of my favorite movies from childhood. I fell in love with Merian C.
Cooper and Ernest B. Schoedsack’s King Kong from 1933 and had seen a lot
of the Ray Harryhausen stop-motion films prior to that. When I saw your film, I
thought, “Wow, they really have come a long way.” I was so impressed with the almost
seamless juxtaposing of the special effects and the live action and full-size
dragon. In the years since, I’ve had the film on every conceivable home video
format, but the picture always seemed very dark and murky, even the letterboxed
laserdisc. The new 4K UHD Blu-ray is just so beautiful, you can now really
enjoy the amazing production design, cinematography, gadgetry, matte paintings
and the incredible Vermithrax Pejorative, a dragon so bad-ass that he has a
surname!
Matthew Robbins: Yes! I have been very carefully
avoiding seeing this movie for about forty years because it looked so wretched.
They worked so many miracles with the new technologies of today to fix one
egregious problem after another (on the new 4K release). So, the fact that you are
so conscious of the difference here before and after, it means a lot.
TG: I would say it almost looks even better
than it did in the theater. Any movie that requires this amount of visual
design to create a world that does not exist, the intricacies and nuances, the optical
effects, the matte paintings and the go-motion with blur, it is truly an art
and collaborative effort. I am a real proponent of the real-world special
effects. I have loved reading Cinefex, Cinefantastique, Starlog and Fangoria
for decades and it is amazing how much time and effort goes into a film such as
this. It is very gratifying to see these movies get their due as none of them
have ever been properly represented on home video due to the limitations
inherent in those technologies. It is wonderful that younger audiences can
really benefit from seeing Dragonslayer in this new 4K ultra high
definition. It is my understanding that this movie got the go-ahead because of the
popularity of the Dungeons & Dragons imagination game.
MR: That’s right. When Hal Barwood and I
drummed up this story, we had been very much present when George Lucas was
creating ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) for Star Wars in 1976 when it
was being set up at the warehouse in Van Nuys with John Dykstra. We were at
that facility, and then he brought it up to Kerner Boulevard, here in Marin (County) where I live, and we
specifically created Dragonslayer to get all that horsepower attached to
something other than star fields and spaceships. So, it was like turning loose
Phil Tippett! Dennis Muren was super charged up because he got a new sandbox to
play in. In terms of what you mentioned before, we were aware of Dungeons
& Dragons, but we weren’t playing the game.
TG: Neither was I! I have no idea why,
either. I loved fantasy, and close friends of mine were very much into it, but
I just was never asked by them. I did love the 1978 Ralph Bakshi cartoon of The
Lord of the Rings with that wonderful score by Leonard Rosenman.
MR: Well, speaking of Lord of the Rings,
Hal was very influenced by Tolkien. He was a fan of Lord of the Rings and
got me acquainted, and I thought it was great.
TG: So many people have been influenced by
Tolkien. George R.R. Martin credits him for his Games of Thrones novels.
MR: Exactly! I was a big fan of Fantasia
with Mickey Mouse and the sorcerer. So, there’s that, and so we combined all
those elements, and then we went out with our agent to find a buyer for this
thing. While we were waiting, he came back with this news that both Paramount
and Walt Disney were both interested. Our first meeting about the film was with
Michael Eisner, who was the president of Paramount at the time. He pointed to
his desk, and he had a stack of scripts about dragons that they had tried to
develop based on their awareness of the Dungeons & Dragons game. So,
the fact that people were playing that game in droves really helped us get the
project off the ground. As far as I know, people still play it. That’s some of
the origins of Dragonslayer.
TG: Was that a long process in your
opinion, to your recollection, or did it all kind of come together fairly
quickly?
MR: It came together fairly quickly compared
to, say, (Guillermo Del Toro’s) Pinocchio.
TG: I had spoken to Robert Wise in February
1994 about my favorite film of his, 1963’s The Haunting, and he talked
about Elliot Scott, his production designer. He did such wonderful work on that
film, as well as Arabian Adventure (1979), The Watcher in the Woods
(1980), Labyrinth (1986) and two of the Indiana Jones films. His
work on Dragonslayer was no less stunning.
MR: Oh, I’m so pleased you’re asking about him.
He was the dean of production designers. When we went over there to England to
put together a crew, everybody was busy. I had actually met some of the people
that George (Lucas) had used on Star Wars and Sir Ridley Scott had used
on Alien. And so, we were very ambitious, and they were all busy, and
they kept saying, “Why aren’t you in touch with Scotty?” I didn’t know who they
meant! Everyone else had been kind of either directly his acolytes or had been
influenced by him. He was a remarkably talented and experienced individual, and
this was only my second picture. He was one of those people whom I relied upon
and he helped me tremendously. He would say things like, “I’m gonna put this
here for you, and you can do the thing,” or “It’s not attached to the rest of
the castle, but then you have this here, and your transition is easy.” He took
me in hand. He was a senior presence and a very lovely man. I was quickly sort
of in awe of him, really. I remember when we had met and we talked about it,
and then I’d had a meeting with him in the art department at Pinewood (Studios),
where he was working, and he had a staff. He was a beloved figure and he came
in with rolls of paper. He put them out on the desk, and he had drawn some
preliminary ideas about how he thought we might have the interior of Ulrich’s
Castle. But, I had something else in mind, something very different. So,
I said, “Well, I don’t know if this is exactly what I want, because I thought
maybe…” and before I could even finish, he took all the papers and he crumpled
them up, and he threw them away. And he said, “All right, we’ll start over.” I
was just appalled because these beautiful drawings, you know, had just gone to
waste! I thought that we were going to discuss it! (laughs) He just
scrapped them! I still have a vivid memory of that. I felt very much like what
they call the imposter syndrome. How could I have done such a thing? He was one
of my favorite people on that movie.
TG: How about cinematographer Derek
Vanlint? He was a veteran of television commercials, just like Sir Ridley Scott
and they had done Alien together. He brought a wonderful and original look
to that film as well. Was he your first choice?
MR: Yes, and he had a cadre around him as
well. He was hard charging, very demanding. His nickname for me was “Pet”. (laughs)
He was a really gifted cinematographer. I was not experienced enough to know
when I was asking for the impossible. He tried to tell me now and then, “We’ll
get you as close as we can get.” He was remarkable. I had not had much
experience with using more than one camera on set at once. So, I learned,
sometimes to my dismay, that I wasn’t free to put the camera just anywhere,
once the master was lit. I learned a lot. You can tell it was my second movie, as
it was on a vastly bigger scale than my first film. I was running to keep up
sometimes.
TG: Were you a fan of movies growing up,
and do you recall the first movie you ever saw?
MR: I was afraid of movies when I was
growing up! I was very easily frightened by not even scary movies, but films that
had a lot of drama or suspense in them.
TG: I was, too. I remember hiding behind my
grandmother’s chair while a documentary on Alfred Hitchcock was on and there
was a scene playing from Dial M for Murder. My father had told me that
the strangler gets killed by a pair of scissors and I was beside myself.
MR: It made me very anxious. I can remember
when I was very little, my father was very interested in classical music, and
he had a lot of classical LPs. He would put on classical music and I would get
scared. They would say, “Well, what’s scary?” And I would say, “Well, this…,”
and the fact that music could have things in a minor key, an orchestra music, it
meant that it was a score to what was happening in the house! It was background
music to what we were living. So, if we were in the kitchen and the music was
in the living room, but my mother was at the stove or something in the kitchen,
I just felt that something terrible was going to happen because Dimitri Tiomkin
was behind this and it was portentous. I was very interested in movies, even
though I was very scared of them. I can’t remember literally the first movie I
ever saw, though. My neighbors had a television set, and I saw some movies
there, such as the Bela Lugosi movies. They were scary. I would leave and then
listen at the door. That’s what my grandson does today. One of my grandchildren
is exactly like me with regard to being afraid of movies. He’ll flee from the
room, and then he’ll linger because he can’t stop, you know?
TG: Are you going to show them Dragonslayer?
Caitlin Clarke was my introduction to the female form. (laughs)
MR: (laughs) My grandchildren are
too young to see Dragonslayer. (pauses) But one day, soon,
they’ll see it!
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